It is almost four years since the first pandemic lockdowns, and even now, it doesn’t seem long enough to get a proper perspective on how much the pandemic has changed things. It is already pretty clear that expectations of and attitudes to work have shifted considerably, with significant implications for recruiting and retention.

My Guest this week is Annette Andrews Founder & Director of Acaria Coaching and a former Chief People Officer. Annette works with large organizations to help them adjust their people practices and policies to align with the post-pandemic perspectives of their employees and future employees. She has some valuable insights on what employers need to do to attract and retain the talent they need.

In the interview, we discuss:

• The current challenges for employers and why these are different from what we’ve seen in the past.

• Benefits, culture and wellbeing

• Showcasing the employee experience

• Implications for retention

• The human impact of a deteriorating candidate experience

• Five generations in the workforce

• Dealing with systemic ageism

• Talent mobility across industries and disciplines

• Changing the structure of the people function.

• How technology will shape the future

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Transcript:

Matt: Support for this podcast comes from Harver, the industry leading hiring solution helping organizations optimize their talent decisions. Rooted in over 35 years of rich data insights, backed by IO psychology and cognitive science, Harver delivers a suite of automated solutions that enable organizations to engage, hire and develop the right talent in a fast and fundamentally less biased way. Visit harver.com to learn how you can take the smart path to the right talent.

[Recruiting Future theme]

Matt: Hi, there. Welcome to Episode 596 of Recruiting Future with me, Matt Alder. It’s almost four years since the first pandemic lockdowns and even now It is almost four years since the first pandemic lockdowns, and even now, it doesn’t seem long enough to get a proper perspective on how much the pandemic has changed things. However, It is already pretty clear that expectations of and attitudes to work have shifted considerably, with significant implications for recruiting and retention.

My Guest this week is Annette Andrews, Founder & Director of Acaria Coaching and a former Chief People Officer. Annette works with large organizations to help them adjust their people practices and policies to to be more align with the post-pandemic perspectives of their employees and future employees. She has some very valuable insights on what employers need to do to attract and retain the talent they need.

Hi, Annette, and welcome to the podcast.

Annette: Oh, thank you so much for the invite to join you today.

Matt: My absolute pleasure. Please could you introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?

Annette: So, my name is Annette Andrews. I’ve had a, let’s say, long career in HR across sector, Ford Motor Company, Lloyds Banking Group, and then my last role, corporate role, was Chief People Officer of Lloyds of London. But I now run my own coaching consulting business and have done for the last four years and love it.

Matt: Fantastic stuff. So, you’ve obviously got a huge amount of experience that we can tap into in the conversation. And I suppose the place to start would be to ask you, what challenges are you seeing in the market at the moment? What challenges are employers facing and how are they may be different from challenges that you’ve seen employers face up to in the past?

Annette: I think post pandemic, there’s been a huge amount of change. It’s not just a single change, it’s multiple changes and it’s the pace of change. So, let me explain that a little bit more. It’s not just that we had a pandemic and we all got used to working in a very different way. We also got very used to living in a different way, and I think it put life in a bit more perspective for us. And then obviously post pandemic, we’ve had the challenging economic environment, the unsettled geopolitical environment that we continue to live in. And also, I think, increased awareness of just what we’ve done to our planet from an environmental perspective as well. Plus, obviously, some very quite high-profile ED&I concerns and changes as well. So, there is a lot happening all at once.

So, what would I say to you on that? People still say to me, “I just want it to go back to the way it was.” It’s not going to. I’d say, some couple of key changes from a recruitment perspective. Organizations typically historically used to see recruitment as a way of looking at candidates and taking their choice of candidates. Actually, it’s way more of a two-way street now, and candidates are taking just as much a good look at you as you are at them when recruiting. And they will choose. They will make choices. You’re somebody they want to join, and that can be based on multiple reasons. But it’s not just about the money and the package anymore. It’ll be about the benefits, the well-being environment, the culture. Do they connect with the people they’ve met? Is this somewhere where they feel that they’re going to be developed and valued? So, that’s a biggie that’s going on.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. And let’s dive into that a little bit deeper. So, obviously, people’s attitudes and the way they think about work are changing. And for many employers, that means that candidates are asking very different questions in the recruitment process. What can employers do to really showcase the employee experience that they offer to make sure that they’re still getting the talent they need for their business?

Annette: And again, it’s multifaceted. I think make sure there is enough information out there about your organization, the culture and particularly the employee experience. So, make the information you share, your website etc. Create that connection and chemistry with people that are potentially going to join you, but are also employed by you. So, it’s show case your employees and hear their voice, tell their stories as well. So, that’s really important.

I think the recruitment process, think about it as a matching exercise. You’re not going to achieve that in a very short space of time. You want them to take a good look at you and you to take a good look at them as well. So, how can you make that an interactive experience where they are given the opportunity to ask questions that you are– You’ve prepared your recruiters with the information they need to answer those questions in a friendly, connecting, inviting way.

And also, this is a huge one, keep in touch with people whilst they’re going through the recruitment process, because if they don’t feel they’ve built a connection with you and you’re just somebody they want to go and join, they will go somewhere where they do feel that connection. And even to the point of you giving them a job offer and them accepting it, they will still go somewhere else if you don’t keep in close contact with them and make them feel part of the team until the very day, they join the team. It’s really important to keep that relationship going.

Matt: Absolutely. I want to talk a little bit more about the issues around candidate experience in a second. Before we do though, obviously, employee experience, culture, all those kind of things, there is as much about retention as they are about recruiting. Do you think employers have woken up to the fact, corporately, that people’s attitudes to work have changed? Do you think that employers are doing enough around employee experience to make sure they retain people down the line?

Annette: I think the light bulb is going on to varying degrees. I would say to you there is a bit of complacency that once we’ve employed somebody, they’ll stay with us. We’ve got them. Also, this is a really interesting one. We’ve got five generations in the workplace now. That’s the first time we’ve had that. We need to think about the employee experience, needs to connect to those five generations, which means our management leaders need to understand the differences for those.

I talk about understanding and creating the moments that matter for your people, knowing what’s important to them, making sure you talk about it, identifying the gaps if they’re not there, because quite often we’re doing stuff, we’ve just taken it for granted that people know about it and appreciate it. But also, I’m saying to organizations now, what you had pre-pandemic as a workplace environment, benefits, policies, meetings etc., has changed. So, have you stopped and taken a look to see whether what you have now is fit for purpose in this new fourth industrial revolution. Bearing in mind, everything else that’s happened in the world as well, and quite often they’re not.

I’ll be brutally honest. That’s quite often, because the leaders of the organization are a bit complacent in terms of, do we really need to do that? It looks all right to me. I don’t see a problem. Or, actually, it was all right when I joined. I’m sure it’ll be all right for here and now. I’m afraid the pace of change has been such that organizations need to look at that, and on a more nimble basis as well. That doesn’t, by the way, mean spending loads more money.

Matt: Yeah. No, absolutely, I agree. I think that the pace of change is there. The key thing here because it continues to speed up, doesn’t it?

Annette: I think that pace of change has taken many of us by surprise. Gosh, isn’t it tough being a manager or a lead at the moment? You’ve got to cope with all of this yourself, and what it means for you and your family. You got to cope with it for what it means from a business delivery and customer perspective. And then you’ve also got to make sure that your team and your business are performing with all those changes on.

So, it’s that group that I think we should really spend some time and energy focusing on, making sure that have they got the skill sets they need, have they got the support they need? Because if we can look at that, then everything else will come out of that.

Matt: Absolutely. Just diving back into recruiting, particularly the candidate experience. I mean, we’ve been talking about the candidate experience for a very long time now, but it seems that poor candidate experiences are very much the norm at the moment in the last year or so. And do you think companies are thinking about that in the right way or truly appreciating the impact of some of the candidate experiences that they’re providing or not providing?

Annette: So, I have to say this is one area that particularly shocks me and stood out to me recently. I was a former head of recruitment at Lloyd’s Bank etc., so this is an area close to my heart. The recruitment process has to be like touch points. People need to know where they stand in the process at each step of the way. And for me, there is a quid pro quo. If you go through a recruitment process, you deserve feedback at the various stages of that process. One, to help you with the ongoing process if you’re still in it for our organization, whichever that might be. But actually, you spent time and energy preparing for time with us. If you’re not successful, let’s give you some feedback, so that you can maybe go and find something somewhere else and learn from that experience.

And that was always very key to me when I was recruiting people, keeping them in touch, thinking about them as potential customers or they might be an existing customer or future customer and thinking about the brand profile. Unfortunately, what I’m seeing and hearing about now is candidates applying for roles, whether it’s directly or through a third- party, and then just not hearing how that application is progressing. Worse than that, having numerous follow up queries saying, or I had an interview last week, have you got any feedback for me? And just getting dropped, going into the ether and then actually getting through to final stage and not being successful and not hearing or getting any feedback and having to chase, well, that is an awful candidate experience, particularly in this day and age, I think it has a real potential impact on mental health of candidates. We forget that what that feels like and imagine yourself in that position.

But finally, it has a really negative impact on the brand, because that individual is going to share their experience with everyone else, friends, family, etc. They’re all potential customers. They’re going to write reviews, but also, they could be your talent for the future. We never forget a candidate experience. It’s one of those critical touch points. So, if I’ve got an ask, “It’s please, please treat candidates with dignity and respect. Let them know where they stand, give them feedback and treat them in exactly the same way you treat a customer.” Think about it as customer service. And that’s hugely important. We forget about that. They are not widgets in a machine. It’s really important that they’re treated in a way you’d want to be treated.

Matt: Do you think there’s a particular reason that the candidate experience is going backwards at the moment?

Annette: I think some of it is the amount of change that we just talked about that’s happening. We know we’ve had a lot of turnover in organizations. We’ve had issues of going up and down in volume that we needed in terms of vacancies and candidates. I wonder if some of it is around not upskilling recruiters, recruiting managers about the importance of how we treat people at this stage of the process. I think just in all the change, all in the flurry, etc., we’ve just forgotten some of that. Important for me, customer service.

Matt: One of the other key things and key changes that is going to become more of an issue as we move forward is that many countries in which people listen to this podcast very much have aging populations. And certainly, in the UK, people are being asked to work possibly into their 70s. There are still skill shortages everywhere, but it just seems that companies aren’t currently set up to deal with this. We still see a lot of ageism. Surely, that can’t continue, can it?

Annette: Oh, gosh, we could have a whole podcast on this very topic, couldn’t we? So, we’ve got five generations at work. You’re spot on. We are losing critical skills and experience from the more mature. The birth rate is going down, so we’re not going to get in the volume of individuals and resources that we need. So, we need to find a way of being able to recruit, retain, develop five generations in the workplace, if we’re going to keep all that skill set and experience and the volume that we need.

Now, it’s not just as easy as recruiting, because I spot all the time that adverts recruitment consultants are focused on the youth end, shall we say, apprentices, graduates, people that have had below management experience or early stages of management experience, they tend to forget about those with more experience. There’s a huge amount of skills experience. But there’s also people looking for second careers now way more than they ever used to, and also people looking for, should we call it, part time or flexible working arrangements. Now, that’s a great way to retain some knowledge and experience, but equally respect that people may not want to work full time at a certain point in their life. That’s not just at the oldest. It might be at various points in their life, they want to work in a different way.

So, I think it’s thinking about those five generations. It’s thinking, again, going back to those touch points and those policies, how are we going to create a working environment and package that’s going to work for those five generations, and how are we going to upskill our managers and leaders to be open to the different needs of those five generations? Because I often get pushback from organizations where they’re saying, “But we don’t want to have people working for us part time or flexibly when they’re thinking about retiring half the time and with us half the time.” And I’m like, “Why not?”

It’s a great way to have really valuable skills and experience, but equally to upskill others in the organization as well. And that’s the way the world’s going. That’s where we will go. So, let’s get ready for it now.

Matt: Absolutely. I think, well, what was really interesting for me there was when you were talking about people embarking on second careers at any stage of their life really. I think one of the issues is that employers aren’t necessarily, I was going to say, very good at, or even want to spot potentially transferable skills from other industries. It seems to be something that lots of employers have issues with. What do you think the answer is there? Because obviously there are some great huge amount of case studies out there of people moving industries and being brilliant at their job, bringing fresh perspectives, but also having the core skills that are needed. What do you think the answer might be?

Annette: This may be controversial. I think many sectors are blind to the skill sets in other industries. I’ve transferred sectors and industries, and the core skill set remains the same. You just have to learn the industry, the culture, the environment, etc. And that is all possible.

I think people miss out on talent, because they are split the right word, or it’s just not open, actually, to having cross sector, cross industry moves. Actually, I think there’s another big benefit of doing it, which is bringing in those fresh perspectives, ideas, because we all get groupthink when we stay in an organizational sector too long. I think somebody coming in and say, “Well, why do you do it somewhere? Have you thought about doing it this way?” is really good for us, but not everybody is open to that.

But again, we’re missing out on talent. When you can do that, it’s like a eureka moment. People are suddenly going, “Wow, I never realized the quality of these talent pools.” And it’s like, “Yes.” Just try it. Just try it and support the people in the onboarding process to get them up to speed with the sector as soon as possible.

Matt: I think leading on from that, one of the other big things we were talking about skills, we were talking about retention, is internal mobility within the organization. What do you think in terms of consistency between external recruiting, internal recruiting? Does talent acquisition have a role into internal recruiting? What do you think companies should be thinking about moving forward?

Annette: I am a passionate advocate for everyone is your talent in the organization. And any role that you’re advertising externally should be open to your internal talent as well. We should be actively encouraging people to apply for roles, but making sure we keep that external benchmark as well. Exactly, for the reasons I said before in terms of opening up our organizations to different talent pools.

The other thing I would add to this now is that those coming into the workplace, especially the younger generations, I’d really encourage organizations to think about their internal talent pools and to identify those, because the new generations coming into the workplace want to know that they have development opportunities, they really want to be invested in and they will make career and company choices based on the development opportunities that they’re getting.

Matt: Do you think there’s something structural here about HR and people operations? Do we need a much closer collaboration or even merging between talent acquisition, talent management, internal mobility, L&D, all those kind of aspects of the business?

Annette: Isn’t it interesting? So, based on my own experience, I would say, your business partners in the business, working very closely with their customer areas, need to stitch all of those aspects together. So, who’s the talent, how are we going to develop them, what are the vacancies that we can be considered for? So, it is literally talent management, by integrating all of those different elements together in HR, so that you’re providing a seamless opportunity.

Now, clearly, the ability to do that is facilitated by technology and knowledge of your people, but I think HR has a critical role in working with businesses to say, “Actually we’ve identified our talent. Let’s consider what we can do from a development perspective for them to maximize the opportunities we have.”

Matt: You mentioned technology there, and actually, we haven’t talked about technology the whole way through this conversation, but it’s obviously a massive force that’s also driving things forward. So, as a final question to you, what do you see the impact of technology, AI obviously, but other technology as well, in terms of the future of HR and talent acquisition?

Annette: So, for me, technology underpins all that we need to be doing from a people perspective. Why? Because it’s a key enabler. If we can make some of those day-to-day routine operational activities optimized by technology, that frees up HR resource to be doing the fun stuff in terms of strategy, talent development, etc. We also need the data. We need data from end-to-end of the employee life cycle, so we can really track how successful our policies, our programs are, etc.

And again, I’m a great believer in dashboards and working those through with the business, because the business have to own. We can’t do it for them. They have to own the people management perspective. We support them do that. So, the more we can use technology to enable people management, talent development, the better. Because still too often, I see and I will say it, HR and people management, talent development held back by the lack of relevant technology and data.

Matt: Annette, thank you very much for talking to me.

Annette: Thank you. Thanks for your time.

Matt: My thanks to Annette. You can follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow the show on Instagram. You can find us by searching for @recruitingfuture. You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com. On that site, you can also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, Recruiting Future Feast, and get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time, and I hope you’ll join me.

The post Ep 596: Expectations and Experience appeared first on The Recruiting Future Podcast.